Team Fortress Wiki:Discussion/Archive 9

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Archive 9: April 2011

Promo Item/Damage Idea

So, as we all know, the damage tables for Promo items simply redirect to the weapon it reskins. However, why don't we just add a damage table for each of those weapons, so a user won't have to redirect from his original page? I'd be willing to do it. SnowCanary 21:30, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I honestly wouldn't be against it, but I feel that it was done the way it is for a reason. Unless a mod has decreed it to be as such, I would say yes, change it. --LordKelvin 21:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

With the new damage table template, all weapon pages will have their own damage/function time table and will not redirect to the weapon they reskin -- Firestorm

Alright, I'll start to add the damage in. Many of the tables are a simple copy-paste, however, so I can't take all the credit. SnowCanary 22:34, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

 SupportIt would be much more convenient Pierow 10:37, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

 Support - I like this, especially since there are some promo weapons with their own stats (i.e. Fan O' War). Happy Fun Ball 00:21, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

 Support I don't see a problem with this and it saves time for the reader DeagleEagle 16:27, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

 Support I agree with deagle and Fun ball PoopManX 31px 11:48, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Weapon Sounds

I think this idea might have been suggested in the past though I can't find it...Anyway. I suggest that we add the sound files that the weapons make. This could be added to the individual weapons pages so that the person can clearly hear the weapons sound without any other audio playing. As there are multiple noises for the same gun, I'm thinking we have some sort of table to clarify. Eg.

Sandman

Function	Sound
Primary Fire	(Primary Fire sound file)
Alternate Fire - Hit Ball	(Hit Ball sound file)
Ball Respawn/Pick Up	(Ball Respawn/Pick Up sound file)

Stickybomb Launcher

Function	Sound
Primary Fire	(Primary Fire sound file)
Primary Fire Charge Up	(Charge Up sound file)
Alternate Fire - Bomb Detination	(Bomb Detination sound file)
Reload	(Reload sound file)

Sentry Gun

Function	Sound
Level 1 - Primary Fire	(Primary Fire sound file)
Level 1 - Target Sighted	(Target Sighted sound file)
Level 1 - Idle	(Idle sound file)
Level 2 - Primary Fire	(Primary Fire sound file)
Level 2 - Target Sighted	(Target Sighted sound file)
Level 2 - Idle	(Idle sound file)
Level 3 - Primary Fire	(Primary Fire sound file)
Level 3 - Rocket Fire	(Rocket Fire sound file)
Level 3 - Target Sighted	(Target Sighted sound file)
Level 3 - Idle	(Idle sound file)

Ect. So yeh what do you guys think? Do-able? Not needed? Also note that these are mock up tables and they can be changed around with the formatting -- No-oneSpecial (talk | contribs) 05:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose The problem with audio files is that you have to open them up in a separate page to hear them, and it's not exactly convenient. Plus, the weapons demonstration videos demonstrate it quite well. --LordKelvin 06:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

 Comment Currently though the Class Response pages don't require you to open new pages to play sound files. You click on them and they ask if you just want to play them or save them or cancel. Why would it be different? And I thought about that too but most of the Weapon Demonstration videos have the Team Fortress tune playing in the background. The point is to just be that sound only. -- No-oneSpecial (talk | contribs) 06:14, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

 Support The weapon demonstrations are only half the battle. For instance, you cannot hear the Eyelander whispering. These sound files would serve as a valuable tool for players to familiarise themselves with the sound on the battlefield, or to use them for their own purposes.--Focusknock 10:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

 Support I'd prefer that it would be on it's own page, "Weapon sounds for class X". Other than that, I really like the idea. Ailure 10:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

 Neutral I don't know it doesn't seems that useful on certain page, but adding it for every weapon seems a bit much, and on a new page for each class completely off. We could create a single page like Weapons sounds with all the sound, something like we did with the class responses pages, and then add links inside the weapon page to this other page (more work but less small pages that would get merge over time). If anyone feel like trying he can create a sandbox, it will be reviewed for sure. Tturbo _(T/C) 12:16, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

 Neutral Yeh that works too. I thought that because each item only had a few sounds each it would still be ok to add to the weapons individual page, but if you feel that a class page that covers all weapons that class uses would be better then I'm all for that too. I'll try it but I don't know how to get all the sounds file :S. I've got holidays coming up in about 4 weeks so if I know how to get the sounds by then I can power through them. -- No-oneSpecial (talk | contribs) 02:04, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose I could've sworn someone already asked an Admin here about doing this, and was told it was a bad idea. And I think I replied to the discussion too. With that being said, I am opposed. Everyone knows what every weapon sounds like. It's not hard to distinguish which weapon is which. And really, do we need like 100+ more sounds on the Wiki? 404 User Not Found 15:10, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

You seem to making very rash generalisations there. Everyone knows what every weapon sounds like? Do you know everybody then? Have you asked them? Furthermore, yes, yes we do need 100+ more sounds because well, the wiki is meant to document everything to do with TF2 and that includes the sounds in the game. Why don't we need 100+ more sounds, is what I put to you. --Focusknock 18:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

 Neutral What Focus said was pretty much my thinking. While I'm sure someone has bought about this topic before, the fact of the matter remains that as this is the wiki we should be providing everything related to the game, so that's every image, every video, and every sound file. Plus the audio pages now seem a bit neglected, so this will give us a chance to overhaul them too. -- No-oneSpecial (talk | contribs) 02:04, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

 Still opposed Actually, I'm not making "rash generalizations". As it just so happens, I found the discussion I was talking about. Turns out it was for Saxton Hale responses, and a user wanting to upload voice clips. It wasn't for weapon sounds. Regardless, I don't think anybody in their right mind is gonna come to the Wiki looking for weapon sounds, and actually sit for several hours waiting meticulously for each sound to load and listen to them. I realize this is a Wiki and we should provide information, but adding weapon sounds under the context of "helping people figure out what each weapon sounds like".....it just seems silly. 404 User Not Found 05:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

 Neutral Hmm, I think the idea is pretty good! I do not know why, but the player can hear the sound ... You know, this is the same as the quote, when you press the button "Play" then playing sound ... The same thing. TheUrbanist _(T/C) 20:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

 Support I like this idea, but the weapon sounds should be on a new page. Ohyeahcrucz 15:48, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose I think the argument for comprehensiveness or "we should because we can" are flawed. We don't server every morsel of information that is possible to extract from the game... we serve targeted information to people with a genune want for it. Believe it or not, the number of people who will actually come by and read the wiki for info on a weapon who have not heard that weapon is a small number. Adding sounds makes sense for weapons that have a strong tactical advantage for knowing what they sound like (e.g. the Buff Banner/other banners). -- Pilk _(talk) 08:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

 Neutral I think the idea is fine, but why would someone want to listen to the sounds of the weapons when they can hear them all the time on the game? DeagleEagle 16:25, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I do not see how this is a logical explanation. Going on this, half the wiki, by your reasoning, would be obsolete. It should not be a question of whether the information is accessible in the game, but whether a reasonable viewer would be willing to know it. And I believe a reasonable person would see the weapon sounds as a benefit. --Focusknock 21:41, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose Having a soundboard of weapon sounds really sounds like a waste of space. At least add the media link to the refrences or external links. XxSLimBoy FaTxX 03:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Team Fortress Classic - Forgotten ...

Hello all, My nickname is TheUrbanist, and I'm the new editor of your site.

Well, I've been looking through the section of TFC, and it seems to me that I can focus on this section because there should be much work. Well, this is my first post on this site, I now have about 100 edits, and 4 days on the site, I'm trying to make this site better :)... Thank you for your attention. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheUrbanist (talk) • (contribs)

Welcome to the community. Feel free to edit the TFC section, it's true that we don't edit TFC section that much because TF2 section is where the majority of changes occur.
PS: Don't forget to sign your comments using ~~~~. Tturbo _(T/C) 18:35, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. Also, I can add articles are gone, in English and make a Russian version of the page. TheUrbanist 11:51, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I would also like to welcome you to the community. I do a lot of work on the TFC section of the wiki. If you have any questions, or need help testing anything let me know on my talk page or you can usually find me on the IRC. K-Mac (Talk | Contrib) 07:00, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh no, thanks, I have got Team Fortress Classic in the Steam, And I may to test some things, if it need for me and for Wiki. I do not know what IRC channel, but as soon as possible get registered on it. Thank you for your attention. TheUrbanist 12:34, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

You can read this little IRC-tutorial if you want to join it. --Picard ^talk 16:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

No offense urbanist, but why is this on the discussion page? Pierow 09:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Request for input on some userboxes I've made

Alrighty, some of you may have seen these on my sandbox already, some may have not. I've created several alternate userboxes on my sandbox and I want some community input on them. As well, I have some questions that I would like answers to before I go and start creating actual Templates for them. The userboxes in question are here on my sandbox.

Now, I would have created a general purpose item userbox that allowed a user to input a quality, and the box's border, background, and link color would change based on the quality, but I have no clue how and was told on IRC to forget about it as that type of thing can bog down the Wiki...or something. It'd be nice if someone who knew how to do this would help me out. I have an idea as to how to make the image change by simply inputting an items full name, and I will be testing that very soon, but the quality color thing eludes me. Onto the questions...

1. What do you guys think of them?
2. What should I name each template? I don't want to overwrite current templates like Template:User_Heros_Hachimaki. I could do "User Heros Hachimaki Alt". Or I could do "Template:User GenHerosHachimaki". Anyone have a good naming system for them?

I don't want to start creating templates using my userbox revamp until I get some community input on them. As the creator, obviously I think they look good and obviously I'd use them. But what do YOU think? 404 User Not Found 17:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I think userboxes are just an editor's means of piddling about and sprucing up their user page. It doesn't warrant a large in depth discussion with the majority of the wiki. /putdown --Focusknock 17:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

:( That's mean, lol. I just wanted to know if you guys like them, and what naming scheme I should use. 404 User Not Found 18:18, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

They look decent to me. I was bored and whipped up a template with switching here. You pass it the attributes quality and item. You can see an example here. —Moussekateer·talk 18:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I like them, I was thinking of doing something like this for my item checkbox. However the fill color seems a little dark to me. KillerKooK 19:01, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I like them :). I would make the text just a little larger as they're slightly hard to read against a colored background. Ailure 猫(talk/contribs) 20:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Great ideas :D And thanks for the awesome switching template, Mousse :D As for the darkness of the background, I used colors I eye-dropped from TF2Items. I think they look nice. So yeah, thanks for the excellent switchable version Mousse :D404 User Not Found 07:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Delete all Memes on Class Pages / Add (User)Scripts on Class Pages

First: I don't like how much the Main Class pages are expanding. The Memes are fanmade and should have an own category(somewhere hidden far far away), but not in the main article. Maybe "we" need a short profile article in the future, with just short/hard facts about the class in the game and then the smalltalk(collapsed until u want to know more). So remove all Memes, thx... = +10% better view of class articles

Second: What is really needed and how to get the interest of the people? I want Scripts for specific classes which are helpful. Why? Because the inofficial wiki has it, and most of the guys are going there for gettin useful scripts. It is almost unfair not be able to tell the people in an article how you can do a rocket jump with just pressing one key. Key+bindings = awesome. I just want an open discussion about it.... = +20% New User, +60% Helpful for all Players(40% alrdy using them)

Third: I love you all guys but my english is still very bad, so ask if you don't get the idea of the points above. NWM 18:01, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what wiki you're going on mate, but I'm looking at the Scout page and I'm not seeing any memes that are 'invading' your precious view (unless you count the Vince Offer stuff but you'd be clutching at straws). Class pages are fine. Also, scripts are user modifications to the game, and some players can do just fine without them. Your suggestion is akin to having a page devoted to all the skins people have made. It's not notable, and not necessary.--Focusknock 18:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I don't see any memes. Just a Gigolo 03:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

April Fools Day, 2011

Ok guys, lets brainstorm ideas! Post your April Fools Day ideas here! Just a few guidlines.

A) People still need to be able to use the Wiki normally. That means NO FALSE INFORMATION

B) Avoid adding anything that is flashy or distracting

C) No auto-playing sounds allowed

D) It has to be funny --Stevoisiak 23:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

• Spy crabs ocassionally walking through the bottom of the screen;
• Episode 3 references;
• Fake patch;

 –  Epic Eric (T | C) 00:00, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

 Neutral Spycrab banner could work as an animated GIF on the front page. As for the ep3 refrences, where would we even put them? And We cant add a fake patch, as that breaks rule A, and will just confuse people --Stevoisiak 00:02, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I just suggest a 'slight' modification of the color scheme MogDog66 _{t c p} || 00:01, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

 Support That could work very well. As long as they aren't bright colors, or make the wiki hard to read, this would be perfect. Hell, the announcements could say that an admin accidentally spilled paint all over the wiki. --Stevoisiak 00:06, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Hot Pink could be a good choice. GeminiViRiS Talk · Contribs 00:08, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

 CommentEhh, I'd stray away from hot pink. Its a bit bright and distracting. Plus, it could be an eyesore. --Stevoisiak 00:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

 Suggestion Stevoisiak is right about the bright colors. Try something light, but not too light like The Color of a Gentlemann's Business Pants, or Mann Co. Orange. --Nihilus0(contribs) 00:23, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

 That slaps me on the knee! I'd really like to see that!  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 00:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

• how about the spy sapping the wiki constantly.
• sound quotes of the scout going off randomly.
• references to Father Grigori.

THE3STOOGES 00:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, 1 and 2 wont work, because we can't autoplay sounds. That'd just annoy the user. As for the Father Grigori refrences, where would we put the refrences? What would they say? be more specific --Stevoisiak 00:07, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I got it! We shrink the letters so you can barely read it at all,also the paint idea is really good. THE3STOOGES 00:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

 Bad idea People still need to be able to use the wiki normally --Stevoisiak 00:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

As I said on IRC: make Demopan the featured article. --LordKelvin 01:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Again? We've already done something like that before.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

The other option that has been discussed in the IRC is Focusknock's article. Looks good to me! --- Esquilax (Talk | Contributions) 01:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

What if I have a surprise planned? -- Pilk _(talk) 01:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Then I would hope that it would be the good kind of surprise ;). --- Esquilax (Talk | Contributions) 01:48, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a guess, it would include topics discussed on here and IRC? --Nihilus0(contribs) 01:51, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Along with the Cow article, the paint and Pilk's suprise, we could replace class icons and names on the Main Page with Gang Garrison 2's  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Why you ruin surprise :'( --Focusknock 15:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, old chum. Firstly, the general public does not read these pages (or if they do they would be a tiny minority), and I assumed that they were the target audience. Secondly, I wasn't aware that it was a surprise as you posted the details in the IRC some time ago. That being said, I'll make it up to you. Would you care for a Ginger Beer? :) --- Esquilax ( | ) 02:01, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm more interested in what Pilk can create... That's should be fun. Tturbo _(T/C) 15:55, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

cowboy ya :3 _TaKamoto_ \/ 03:00, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What a mess! This is the worst of all that Valve could come up with. It would be better if this update is removed!--  _{( |)} 04:25, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Other Wiki

You know how at the bottom there is a reference to other wikis. well i found a new one that we ca add. It's called the Valve Developer Community Wiki. I think we should add this because this is a major reference. THE3STOOGES 00:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, added~ — Wind 00:45, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, it's not part of the "Valve Wiki Network", which is a mutual-linking thingy between the wikis involved. :( Was a good idea still, thanks for suggesting it — Wind 00:49, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Can't we just contact the Dev Wiki and ask if they'd like to be a part of the Wiki Network? MogDog66 _{t c p} || 01:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Pilk said that it's not community-runned, so, it is not going to be included into VWN.

That bloody image cache problem.

Ok seriously, we need a new solution when it comes to this image cache issue. On March 22nd, I uploaded a new version of File:Aw-Matador.png over the original, as Mecha's Advanced Weaponiser server has started using a different model for the Matador. The image cache issue struck and now both the File page for the image, and the image on Advanced Weaponiser is still showing the old Matador model image to this date.

I've tried purging the AW page, the file page and the cached image, as well as CTRL+F5ing them. Nothings worked. I did upload the image of the new Matador model as "Aw-Matador2.png", and was quite annoyed when I noticed an admin had deleted it and reverted the change I made to the AW page shortly thereafter. (I didn't say anything. Kept my mouth shut. Regardless, I was quite annoyed).

So that's why I'm posting this. We need a new solution to this image cache problem, and my suggested solutions are:

• If you are uploading a new version of an image, upload it as a new version. For example, if you are uploading a new version of Aw-Matador.png, upload it as Aw-Matador2.png. Then label the original for deletion.
• Get Windpower to make WindBot stop crushing images. The image crushing, from what I can see, is what caused File:Aw-Matador.png to get hit by the cache bug. I'm sure the image crushing by WindBot has also buggered up many other images.

Obviously, my suggestions aren't the best, so I'd like to hear some other ideas we could use to avoid this stupid cache problem. I've tried discussing alternate solutions on the IRC back on March 22nd, and was simply told to "upload a new version over the original". Frankly, I'm tired of uploading a new version of an image, only to have the cache screw up and continually display the old version.

To our Admins, I suggest looking for whoever is the most knowledgeable with the image cache system on Wikipedia, and asking them for help. Either that or ask Uberfuzzy at the Central Wikia. 404 User Not Found 22:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not MediaWiki, it's some server tweaks that Valve has made (Varnish cache, I bet, because I have to blame it on something). But no, all images are affected without exceptions, and it's the cache problems that cause WindBOT to go on a loop like this. :( Valve has been contacted about it already but AFAIK haven't replied. I will disable the crushing filter for now — Wind 22:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I have let Jeff know about it. Everyone shares your frustration but we really don't have control over any of the server side settings. -- Pilk _(talk) 22:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Does this work Varnish Purging remotely? --Org 06:59, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Crate Key

Don't you think the Crate Key should also be available by drop? Because I have over 5 crates and i don't have any keys >:( — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sniper101 (talk) • (contribs)

This isn't a forum. The Steam forums can be found here. —Moussekateer·talk 05:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Its just something you have to deal with, because honestly i have over 40 crates. I've learned to live with that fact. Also making keys was obviously a major success for Valve. Why would they change that? Also they won't just give that all up due to a few kids like you complaining about crates. Froad05 09:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

"I know right? Crate keys should at least be craftable, I mean come on. Who would give you a free crate but make you spend $2.49 for a key. By the way, i think i know the perfect craft recipe for the crate key. How about 1 reclaimed metal+1 crate=1 key? Just saying. User:The Ultimate Medic

The entire point of the crate-n-key system is for valve to get as much money as possible. Like a company handing out free products that need a $300 attachment to work. I'm not saying that really happens in real life, but I honestly try to ignore crates. They wouldn't put these into the game if they didn't want money. But yes, I truly, extremly wish that Valve would at least implement the system of having the chance of getting a paint or rare weapon into the basic drop system and get rid of this whole "get 20 free crates, buy $40 worth of keys." XxSLimBoy FaTxX 03:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The only thing you can't get without crates is unusual hats. You don't need unusual hats at all, so they're your reward for buying keys. I don't think they should be drop-able at all. They should stay in the store. Just a Gigolo

Recent Additions

Seeing that the Japan hats are still listed as recent additions, but the Shogun pack is not, how long must an item be available for it to have this tag removed? SnowCanary 12:59, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

We don't really have a fixed rule stating after X days the tag gets removed. I personally remove them when I'm confident to say that I think the article covers all aspects of the item, meaning I usually untag hats faster than weapons. So yes, I'll remove those tags now. --CruelCow ^(talk) 13:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

See also section tables

Would the See Also sections on certain articles benefit from a table or other visual representation of the See Also items? (when applicable)

For example, on Mercenary,

Soldier of Fortune	Grizzled Veteran	Primeval Warrior

Or something a bit less obtrusive:

Soldier of Fortune	Grizzled Veteran	Primeval Warrior

- LingoSalad _(talk) 19:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

 Neutral: I feel that it's a bit too situational since lots of pages in the "See Also" sections link to things like bundles and/or other strategy pages. For instance, how would you approach Humanitarian's Hachimaki, which contains links to items and the Japan Charity Bundle, which does not have an icon? It's a bit hard to do consistently. --LordKelvin 19:35, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose i think that the "See Also" dont need to be like that, if it does, u'll be already showing the stuff through those tables :S, and theres the icon problem too as LordKelvin already said _Takamoto_ 20:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose The see also section should be a small discrete section. Plus, if they wanted to see an image of the item they would just click the link. MogDog66 _{t c p} || 20:16, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Translated names

We're getting fire from the chinese translators and the Portguese ones about which names to use. It was also brought to my attention that there is a document floating around off-wiki being used to guide portuguese translators, without having received any review from the staff and stuff. What do? AFAIK, the policy is to use the Valve-provided ones (in tf_somelanguage.txt) whenever possible, and use English if there are no such strings. Is that not the case? What should we do about all pages using the inconsistent policy? (Disclaimer: I'm back from a multiple-weeks mostly-hiatus and haven't been able to find time to keep up with the wiki/TF2 in general, so I might be completely late here but it's 3 AM and I wanna get this out of the way) — Wind 06:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about the other languages, but TF2 isn't translated to Brazilian Portuguese, only to European Portuguese, so we use English names in the articles. That may change if TF2 is translated to the Brazilian Portuguese. –  Ohyeahcrucz[T][C] 07:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

That's mostly the case, but it should be left up to translators themselves to agree on what is best. We shouldn't accept some blanket position as there are going to be special cases (like pt-br, where item names aren't translated (this may be limited to the wiki only, not sure)). TL;DR we shouldn't be dictating to translators how to write in their language if we can't read / understand / speak fluently ourselves. Let them decide. seb26 07:02, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just dumb, but that document looks like it mainly uses dictionary terms for common names, but not many actual names. I would say, specific ones like "Mann Co. Store" or "Steam Community" or whatnot should use the English equivalent, while anything that can be much more easily understood in that language (say, "Kill" and "Screenshot") should probably be left to the discretion of the translator. -- LordKelvin 07:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

If TF2 is not translated into Brazilian Portuguese, then why are we bothering to have this discussion in the first place? The in-game files have the game translated into European Portuguese and this should be used. As stated by many Brazilian Portuguese speakers there are major differences in the language, if this is the case why doesn't Brazilian Portuguese have their own section?

As a Spanish translator I strive to keep true to the words used by the in-game files, although I personally would not translate some things in that fashion, it still stands that I should not use words which are used in say Venezuela when trying to describe something. An example would be the word Cojer. In Venezuela and other Latin American countries this means "To pick up" "To take" in Spain however this means "To have sexual intercourse"

It is up to the pt-br community to come to a consensus on this and so long as they are happy with how they want to do it then fantastic. However informing the community as a whole would also be rather handy so an event like the one that happened today (me adding quite a few translated weapon names to the pt-br dictionary from the in-game files tf_portuguese.txt) does not spark off a discussion which could upset anyone. I apologise profusely to the pt-br team, I am new here and I only went by the rules I was taught in the IRC channel with regards to the use of words etc.

BiBi 07:28, 9 April 2011 (UTC) <-- Stolen from Seb (Sowwy I had to give myself something, I'll look for something different soon =3)

The wiki is being translated to pt-br because Steam is translated to pt-br, just check the Steam Translation Server, and you will see Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese. Currently TF2 is only translated to European Portuguese, but if it is translated to pt-br, then we will start translating the names. User:Ohyeahcrucz/Sig2 07:31, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I think even if we get a pt-br steam, some names still wont be translated due to grammar rules, "you cant translate english names to portuguese", mainly the weapon's names (f.e. the commom Desert Eagle from CSS, we'll never translate it to Águia do Deserto). But the engine stuff, of course, those will get translated, like the menu interface, etc etc _Takamoto_ 09:19, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The rules we use on PT-BR translations are the ones already defined by other translators in STS, so once it's released, we'll have the Wiki already ready.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 15:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

'Staff'

A common belief in the community is that the TF2 Wiki is run by a closed-in, elitist bunch of dicks who undo all your edits (need a paraphrasin' here). Well whether it is or it isn't, I think we can do a little to avoid this impression by dropping this 'staff' collective title and just go back to old 'mods and admins'. We aren't 'staff' in the usual sense, all we have is extra permissions when it comes to editing, so I think that calling it what it is would be the better option here. The word 'staff' seems kind of alienating (to me anyway) and we should be trying to encourage people to help, instead of scaring them off. Just my opinion~ seb26 06:16, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The word was chosen because it encompasses all hierarchy levels (besides regular users) in order to flatten the hierarchy (which is a good thing). I don't know if canceling that is worth doing over public representation (lol PR), but if there's a synonym for staff that doesn't sound intimidating and encompasses everyone then yay — Wind 06:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

'Overlords' sounds better. Oh, or 'Wikimasters.' 'Wikimancer?' Mar 06:30, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, there really only is 3 levels of permissions (normal mod, admin & bcrat). The permissions given to the latter are used so infrequently that it can just be ignored, leaving only mods and admins. This seems to be what most other Internet forums & whatnot have as well. Yes it does kind of flatten everyone, but now, I think it's also having the negative effect of increasing the gap between normal users & mods. Now, 'staff' sounds official, like we've been given some official authority to systemically kill all your contributions, it sounds too elitist and I think it's something we need to get rid of. seb26 06:36, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, if someone wants to slander or think bad things about the people who maintenance the wiki, then a different name won't change their minds. If we use "moderators and admins" or "Wiki Team" or whatever, then they'll still say "Why are the Wiki mods and admins such dicks?" or "Why is the Wiki Team so douchey?" or what have you.

In my opinion, this is the price we pay for maintaining a high-quality Wiki. Most of the people who say bad things about it seem to be part of the crowd that adds bad trivia or bad strategy tips, so really it's a matter of them not reading the guidelines properly. We could implement a warning to read the trivia guidelines before editing every time someone edits a trivia section, but the only other real alternative is to change the trivia guidelines, and that would result in quality reduction that would be unacceptable. -- LordKelvin 06:44, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

It's a fair point, but I believe that where a name change will help the most will be in our own general attitude. If we're not thinking of every edit as a battle of users vs. 'staff' then I think it'll do much to change the way we welcome new users not just into editing, but into our community. It's true though, the criticism aspect won't change, people will still call us or think of us as whatever, but I think the greater change should be for us, and how we confront new people and whatnot. It's a lot of hope going into just a simple rename but I really think that it'll really do a lot of good in the longer run. seb26 06:56, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I can see where Seb is coming from with his point. I believe that a tweak could greatly benefit the community. Now, I say this not because I have in any way felt alienated or found you guys to be unhelpful, quite the opposite in fact. My opinions are purely based on my experience coming from a position similar to the one you guys address in this discussion. If you see that there seems to be a division which could be affecting the dynamics in the community, it is very wise and thoughtful to address them. If we break down everything to its bare bones, we have one thing that keeps us all in the same level and I believe this is "Wanting to help the TF2 community by providing a quality source of information in the form of a Wiki site". If Admins & Moderators push this thought into their own mind set and help propagate it to the rest of the community it would show all that no one here is better than any one else. It would certainly bridge that possible gap that some of you are experiencing. Admins & Mods have been given "tools" that empowers them to help the rest of the community to effectively achieve the common goal, but if those tools are taken away the roles of said individuals would still be no different in that we would all continue to strive for the same outcome.

As a new contributor I can safely say that I'd like to see clearer defined roles. For instance, if you are a Localization Moderator, I'd like to know which language you are affiliated with. If you are one of the Mods/Admins that deals with nuts & bolts (bots/scripts, etc) then I'd like to know who that is. If your speciality as Mod is people skills and you are able to help resolve disputes and contributor problems, I'd like to know whom you maybe. TF2 Wiki Team seems like a reasonable name; for it would en-composite not only Bureaucrats/Admins/Mods but also include all contributors (regular editors) to that group. Clearly defined roles will not make large divides in our community so long as those up top don't let it get to their heads and always drive home that in the grand scheme of things we are all equal. It also means that those of us that are regulars need to understand that regardless of how small or big a contribution, they are all valued and that any support they need an admin/mod will always be in hand to help them out.

TL;DR: Name should be TF2 Wiki Team which would embrace everyone in the community that contributes to the site. BiBi 08:56, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support Yes, I like dis nou weapon. :3 — Wind 22:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Well i think Seb is right and we should welcome them, but really there just mad that there edits got undone,i remember i got mad when i got alot of undone edits,so maybe we should give them a precaution before they edit a page.Changing The name really won't do anything so we should respect them and they should respect Us. They are just as equal as them but some people have different privileges and different powers.So we should have a special template that lists what people do like who does redirects and who cleans up pages.Also i think we should have some pages locked so people don't mess it up.Like Fully Finished Pages. THE3STOOGES 22:34, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, I believe Pilk was thinking of a new system that replaced the staff with a more community friendly hierarchy.--Focusknock 11:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Update History on Class pages

what do you guys think of creating a update history section on class pages, because i noticed that theres some trivias that are like this: "As of the December 17, 2010 Patch Spies no longer speak Domination or Revenge lines, regardless of weapons equipped". shouldn't that be part of an Update History? _Takamoto_ 16:26, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

There was a discussion on this back in February, but it didn't seem to gain much traction. Since it met with overall approval, there's no real reason not do do it, I guess. -- LordKelvin 19:09, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I have brought this discussion up previously with a general class bugs section. I would agree that certain patches to the game (such as the given example above) are not attributable to any given weapon and so get repeated on every page over and over again. However, for some patches (such as fixing the Pyro afterburn damage), it can be attributed to a stock weapon rather than to the class. --Focusknock 11:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

So now theres a Update History section on each classe page, ish guud (: _Takamoto_ 15:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Rotating Hat GIFs

Ive been thinking some rotating shots of the hats would be a nice addition to their respective pages so people can see what they look like all the way around. Ive been working out a way of doing it effectivly on a white background and the resulting Gif's are practically flawless. Any thoughts, would this make a nice addition? Triplejx3 22:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose Nope. We dont need this :] Rins (talk | contribs) 11:19, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I feel the current pictures of hats need redoing more than replacing. The poses are fine, but the positioning of the hates on the head are wrong.--Focusknock 11:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support This is a pretty good idea to let viewers observe a hat from all angles, like in the Mann Co. Store. Great idea. XxSLimBoy FaTxX 03:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Hello

Hey, My name is PoopManX and I'm a little new to the wiki. I stole some userboxes and added them to my page, and even created my own signature

PoopManX 31px

I hope I can become one of the regulars!

PS, the picture in my signature IS the minecraft skull painting. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by PoopManX (talk) • (contribs)

First off, welcome to the wiki good buddy. Second, make sure you sign all of your posts on discussion pages with that fancy signature of yours :) This can be done either automatically by clicking the signature button (the second from the right) when in the edit page, or by manually typing in ~~~~ at the end of all of your comments. All the best ---- No-oneSpecial (talk | contribs) 14:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Hey. SLimBoy here. I'm about a week fresh into this wiki, and I'm sort of wondering how to edit my signature with a GIF of image. XxSLimBoy FaTxX 03:26, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Adding the "Quoteneeded" template

I'll make this short and sweet. I created this templete to be put on pages that needed quotations. I created it on my user-page under WIP Pages, and got the approval of a mod to add it to the page. However, somewhere, there may have been a miscommunication about adding the template. There was some discussion, and it was decided that the template was not needed, and was deleted. I fully understand this. So lets start the discussion on whether this template should be kept or not. For refrence, the template in question can be found here --Stevoisiak 18:31, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support While it may not be the most important task on the wiki, it is not meant to be used frequently. It's to be used sparingly. Besides, check what Coldfronts quote was before I added the template to it. --Stevoisiak 18:32, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose In the amount of time it takes to post this template someone could have created a quote instead; this is useless. This idea has already been deleted multiple times. Please do not add support icons underneath your own proposal, this gives the first impression that others have supported your idea.
— minip 18:52, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

 Comment Fair enough argument. Just one minor thing though. The article wasn't "deleted multiple times". the only reason it has 3 revisions is because I personally asked Wind to temporarily restore the article so I could move it to my userpage. He restored and re-deleted it at my own request. The article was deleted only one time. --Stevoisiak 18:57, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose Quotes are subjective, anyone could potentially slap this template on a page just so they could have an excuse to alter the quote to their liking. In any case, every page already has its own fitting quote that has been there for a while with no problems.--Focusknock 11:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

 Comment Alright, the general response seems to be negative to the template. I'll wait for 2 or 3 more responces, and if they are all negative, I'll be forming a "Scrapped Pages" section for my userpage, and just drop the template completely. --Stevoisiak 19:46, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose Quoting minip, In the amount of time it takes to post this template someone could have created a quote instead; I agree that some pages are missing quotes when they should have them, but you could just add them yourself instead of adding a template and let somebody else do it just because you don't want to.  –  Epic Eric (T | C) 19:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support If you can find a good quote, you put it there and if you can't come up with a good one, you just put the template there. I really don't see the problem here. --CruelCow ^(talk) 23:45, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Using templates to mark missing information will only stall progress, at what point do we draw the line? Are we eventually going to have templates to mark every bit of missing information?
— minip 23:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

 Neutral I don't see any point in adding quotes to every page but if everyone else agrees then whatever. User:Ohyeahcrucz/Sig2 23:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose A quote needed template at the top is more of a detriment to an article than not having a quote. It's a good idea, but it's simply an eyesore. A category such as Category:Articles needing quotes would be a fitting alternative. Besides, it's not a huge deal if an article doesn't have a quote. - LingoSalad _(talk) 15:52, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose i purely agree with what minip/EpicEric said, theres no need of template, you can add them by yourself. _Takamoto_ 16:04, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

 Final Verdict Because of the near unanimous negative response, the template will be scrapped. --Stevoisiak 22:28, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

---

Weapon Demonstration project needs to be updated!

In the new April 14, 2011 Patch (Hatless Update) alot weapons in the game had their stats changed, as a result many weapons (e.g. the Backburner witch can now airblast) are now completely different. This means that the some the Weapon Demonstration project video are outdated! I feel that we most removed these outdated videos in till we can create updated ones. PoopManX 31px 17:50, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I think that only new weapons should recieve their own Demonstration videos, but you brought out some pretty good points with the Backburner Airblast. It would be alot more simpaler if there was a video showcasing the update instead of a new video altogether. So any weapon stat changes in the update will all be compared to their preceding weapon stats. Hopefully whoever runs the OfficialTF2Wiki channel will take note of this. XxSLimBoy FaTxX 03:22, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Whats going on here.

Ive been wanting to see what is going on with the overhaul of the community strategy and maybe help out a little bit but when I click on the link in the "Current ongoing discussions" that says "Strategy overhaul Mk. II" it does not redirect me to anywhere and just keeps me on the Discussion page. Is it just me or is something wrong?Fruitbasket 17:23, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

That discussion's been kinda dead for a while, and it doesn't link properly because some of the stuff has been archived over time. Most of what's going on is either in IRC or has been settled and ongoing. I'm the one overlooking the strategy overhaul, but it's been a bit slow-going recently because I haven't had the time to look over it all. -- LordKelvin 17:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Propoganda Hats

The hats from the Propaganda contest are unique items, so why not give them their own pages? I have created pages for these hats in my userpage, which can be found here, here, and here. I would like to move these pages into the official wiki. If the Companion Cube Pin and Resurrection Associate Pin get separate articles, why shouldn't the propaganda hats? Oh, and before someone says that if we are going by item ID's, there should be two pages for the lugermorph, the difference is that the lugers are only different in the game code. These hats have different names, descriptions, and models. --Stevoisiak 20:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support They are separate items so they should have their page. User:Ohyeahcrucz/Sig2 20:34, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support Hit it doc — Wind 20:40, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose. I don't think we should be giving articles to each and every item in the schema, we have to be diligent about choosing which ones can be covered in the least amount of separate articles as possible. In this case, I don't think they add anything interesting that can't be put into the normal article. The only things it adds is a one sentence line about the Contest, links to the item and the guy's backpack on optf2, and the poster gallery image itself. All of these things could and should just be added to the normal article, so I say  No to new articles. seb26 22:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

TL;DR not enough info to have a separate page, and the info it has can be simply put into the Towering Pillar of Hats, Modest Pile of Hats, etc articles easily seb26 22:57, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose Same reason as seb26 told. Propaganda hats dont deserve seperate page.Rins (talk | contribs) 08:08, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose I understand where you're coming from, but as already stated there isn't enough of a difference between the normal hat and the ones the winners got. The reason why the Companion Cube Pin and the Resurrection Associate Pin got seperate pages is because they're just that, seperate items with different names, just the same skin. In the same way that the Rocket Launcher and Rocket Jumper use the same skin but have seperate pages. And the Luger only has one page because it was the same name and description both times. If it had a different name between games they would have different pages. Sorry man ---- No-oneSpecial (talk | contribs) 15:21, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

 Comment Actually, they do have different skins, models, names. Their ingame name's and models are not the same as the pile of hats they are based on. --Stevoisiak 17:46, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support I think they should have their own pages, they might use the same model but they are unique and different hats. Move the gear up lads! _Takamoto_ 17:28, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support Do it, doc, do it. maggosh 17:34, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose It will be useless articles. Any user can receive all information he/she need from relevant page. - Grand-O-Rand  · (Talk) 17:40, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose Nothing new that hasn't already been said. These hats are not special. Having a unique model and texture only puts them slightly above self made items. They have no additional information or backstory that is not already covered on the propaganda page and the respective hat pages. This is unneccesary.--Focusknock 22:55, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support I think these can fit into one article, though - LingoSalad _(talk) 19:18, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support They're distinct and prestigious. I say why not? Besides, it's not like we're running out of paper here... 20:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support If we can have pages for other limited prizes like the Polycount Pin, why not? -- OluapPlayer _(t) 20:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

 Oppose While it is indeed true that the Companion Cube Pin and Ressurection Associate Pin have more in common then the propaganda hats have with the 'normal' hats, but as it stands, there are thousands of Companion Cube Pins and Ressurection Associate Pins out there, but only 3 propaganda hats. People are more likely to separately search for the two pins then for the propaganda hats. On top of that, while the pins do not differ in model, they extensively differ in information (trivia, how to get, quality). If we would combine the two pins into one page, it would get twice as large. The three propaganda hats, on average, have two trivia pieces and one picture added on the 'normal' hat pages. If we were to give them separate pages, it would bring hardly any value. In my opinion, the value is way too low to give the propaganda hats their own pages. Hefaistus - talk 21:21, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

 Support They're unique hats altogether. The Ghastlier Gibus has it's own page and it's a reskin of the Ghastly Gibus. If it get's it's own page than why can't the propaganda hats? XxSLimBoy FaTxX 16:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

 Support Sounds like a good idea. I'd like to see this. BiBi 21:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Can't Model but have great ideas?

Disclaimer: I cannot model either. Hey guys, do you have great ideas for new items? Post them here and maybe if we're lucky, some Valve person would be looking at these posts and if we are even luckier, that person would happily model our designs for us. here, I got one right now. - New Sniper Secondary Weapon: Jar of water (reskin of Jarate)

 -extinguishes a burning player
 - can be drunk to replenish 50 HP User: The Ultimate Medic

This wiki isn't meant for putting your own ideas for suggesting to Valve. If you want to do that, you can try sending your stuff through the Contribute site, or post your idea on the Steam forums. -- LordKelvin 17:18, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I will.User: The Ultimate Medic 14:01 25, April 2011 (ETC)

Bugs

I have a question on how the various bugs in the game are reported on the site. To me a bug is something that doesn't function the way it is advertised or programmed. A good example is on the Huntsman when it says that a stunned Sniper with it drawn will still be fired and injure or even kill targets. But there are some like the Eyelander that say "Bottle lines are spoken upon a kill." While it may not make since that this is what the Demoman would say, if the makers of the game did not put any Eyelander lines, that isn't really a bug. If anything it might be trivia but not much else. Of course, I'm not sure of the top of my head if there actually are Eyelander lines (too lazy to look) but I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. I suggest moving 'bugs' like this to either trivia or deleting entirely. BASEBALLFURIES 04:04, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

While I agree that such an oversight isn't a bug, I think it's still worthy of mention...just, not as a bug. For a while now I've been kinda pushing for the bugs section to be renamed to something a big more broad (Errors, or Bugs/Errors or something) or for such kinds of "goofs" to be given their own section altogether when applicable. Gerk 05:43, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

This discussion has already been made[1]. You only need to go to SPUF to see that players view these things as bugs, in that they are unintentional and detract from gaming experience. Simply deleting them or moving them will not change that. As you can see in the archive, I've suggested renaming bugs to just general errors myself, but it fell through. As such, I compromised with having the criteria 'bugs that are obvious to the general player' in the weapon page guidelines.--Focusknock 10:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

The preceding discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.